Jack/Renee blue


Out where the dreams are high

Straight to the valley of the great divide

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8x07 Renee is really pissed
So I'm kind of fuming about this roundup of various authors' sentiments re: fanfiction.

Stephenie Meyer, please stop talking.

Do you guys have thoughts on this? Is fanfic any different when it's written about books than when it's written about TV or movies? My personal opinion is that as long as nobody is making any money (I absolutely believe that no one should profit from characters or ideas that someone else has created) on the enterprise, all these authors should be flattered that people care enough about their stuff to want to take it to different places.

WHATEVER. I'm going for a run before the predicted six days of rain set in, then boring domestic crap and *fingers crossed* hopefully a bit of inspiration so that I can finally finish my Christmas fics. And I wouldn't object at all if [personal profile] adrenalin211 and [personal profile] sardonicynic finished their Christmas fics either. What, are you having a life or something? :P

Also, due to a meme I got from tanyareed, I'm trying to think up five characters whose names begin with T in order to comment on them. If you guys have suggestions, let me know! And I hope everyone has a lovely, relaxing weekend.

This entry was originally posted at dreamwidth. If you wish to leave a comment, please do so wherever it makes you happy.

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Liz actually posted that same article on my facebook last night, and we were discussing how we didn't understand why authors get so mad/judgemental about people writing fanfiction. I'm completely with you on what you said about how as long as people aren't making money, authors should feel good about the fact that the story and characters that they've created mean so much to so many people that they want to create storylines of their own. Like...shouldn't that be something that an author would WANT to do? Inspire people so much? They obviously won't agree with everything that fic writers do with their characters, and the storylines they come up with, but that's the thing- people are going to have so many different ideas and perspectives about it, and the point is that the authors are still the ones who created this world and these characters that are making people want to write more because they want more about them! It's so ridiculous that that's not something that would make authors happy.

Sending you lots of inspiration so that you'll be able to work on and hopefully finish your Christmas fics!!! And hope you have a nice run and wonderful Friday/weekend ♥

And characters that start with T: Tonks? Thresh? Tony Almeida? Tooms? :P

I mean, I can understand how someone could come across one of the gajillion pieces of horribly written fanfic and be like, "OMGWTF, what have you done with my characters?" However, I also feel pretty convicted that were I the author, I would be more amused than outraged.

I'm with you on the idea that as artists, these people should feel great that their characters and universes have created so many feelings in readers or viewers. I did die laughing at Charlie Stross. That's how I think all the authors should feel. As long as nobody's making money, do what you want. I'm also wildly entertained by Rowling's problem with people writing NC-17 stuff about her characters. I mean, what's the deal there? I don't enjoy reading about teenagers going at it, but if that's your bag, then word.

OMG, you're a genius. Look at all those T characters! I think you're supposed to actually like them though, which would leave with um, Tonks? Halfway Tony? Still, that's a lot further than I got. Thanks!

Nrrrrgh, must make myself run. I keep saying I gotta let the yogurt settle;) Have a great weekend! ♥

Edited at 2012-04-20 12:56 pm (UTC)


2. I don't know if I just have my feminist underpants on more than usual lately, or if it's the fact that this stuff is becoming more mainstream, or if it's because I spent a lot of time last night reading Jennifer Weiner's blog and the stuff about her and Jonathan Franzen and her and Curtis Sittenfeld/Melissa Bank, or WHAT, but the point I am trying to make here is that: DEAR NASTIES, PLEASE STOP TRYING TO MAKE THE ARGUMENT THAT BECAUSE GIRLS LIKE SOMETHING AND PARTICIPATE IN IT, THAT MAKES IT STUPID. That is actually what pisses me off about this article more than anything. Like, okay, if you want to say that fanfic is stupid, that's fine, it is stupid a lot of the time, but teenage girls liking it isn't what makes it stupid. That to me is way more annoying than these stupid authors being like, boo hoo, don't tread on my fancy literary credibility. Also, like, Diana Gabaldon and Anne Rice and Orson Scott Card? OKAY, GANG. Like, not that there's anything wrong with genre fiction, but because it's so ghettoized in the literary world you would think they'd be like, less unbearably prissy about the whole affair. Also, frankly: these people are old. I bet if you talked to younger writers of science fiction and fantasy, you'd get a way different view.


Edited at 2012-04-20 01:01 pm (UTC)


2. Could you link me to what you were reading? I feel as if I have a lot of complicated feelings about this that I'm not able to articulate well at this precise moment. But they relate to the incredible condescension (this particularly relates to what stupid fucking Stephenie with an E Meyers was saying) involved in assuming that people write fanfic because they're copping out of writing something else. But it's complex, this idea in my head, because I do not think of fanfic quite as just a hobby, the way I would think of idk, running. So I'm working it all out in my head. The point I'm making is that people can write srs bsness literature and still enjoy writing fanfic. YOU KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT:P

Ugh, they are fucking old. Go away crotchety old people. Go hang out with some cool old people and see if it rubs off.

Ahhhh, I wish I didn't know what a giant dick-headed baby George R. R. Martin is, BUT I DO.

Thanks to HBO, I am enjoying the shit out of Game of Thrones. The first season even made me one of ~those readers. So I finished the first book in the series, and I've picked up the second, and the dude is good, he really is. I even fell so hard for Ned Stark, I nabbed the character for Milliways pretendy fun-times! I AM SURE GRRM WANTS TO PUT ME ON THE RACK FOR THIS. Or maybe he'd like my head on a pike, because I have made off with one of his ~children. I AM A DEPLORABLE HUMAN BEING, Y'ALL. NAY, A KIDNAPPER.

Anyway, I didn't know what a honking DHB the man responsible for this world was until I stumbled onto some Internetty dramarama over at Winter is Coming, Bitches a few weeks back. The tumblr is hilarious, as is the awesome lady who ran it. But turns out, GRRM is a tool. Not only does he equate fanfic with intellectual sodomy, but also he made a big-ass stink a few years ago when J.K. Rowling won the Nebula for Harry Potter. See, GRRM did not win the Nebula for A Song of Ice and Fire. And he gave a speech afterward that was basically, "I hope she enjoys my award."

DHB, DHB, DHBeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

Anyway, I'd wax sense-making with stuff about public figures, public domain, intellectual property, and the carefully precise language of such disclaimers as [ character / show / film / book ] is property of [ author / network / studio / publishing house ]; I'm not affiliated with them, nor am I making any money off this but I need more coffee. MORE WHEREWITHAL SO I CAN TELL GRRM TO STFU.

(oh my god christmas fic - I have not forgotten! there has just been, uh, stuff, as of late.)

(oh my god christmas fic - I have not forgotten! there has just been, uh, stuff, as of late.)

Dude. DUDE. Dood. I hear you to the multienth power on the stuff. So much fucking stuff. I would say that I kid about the fic but that would be a lie and I'm an honest person. BUT I will certainly reiterate that I understand about the stuff.

Bwheeeee, as to the rest, um, isn't that guy dead now? Wasn't that a whole thing? Did I make that up in the wild place in my brain where I tend to cross all the pop culture things because I know 1% of something about all of them and it becomes a giant mishmash? In any case, yes you have kidnapped his bb and clearly he is coming for you.

I JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW ANYONE CARES IF THERE IS NOT PROFIT INVOLVED. I mean Jane Austen can't sue about the zombies. Therefore, all arguments are invalid.

Edited at 2012-04-20 02:04 pm (UTC)

Ahahaha, you are not wrong in that a prominent fantasy author passed on, and the fans were like, "Ahhhh, the series! THE SERIES!" That was Robert Jordan, who wrote the Wheel of Time series. I've never picked 'em up, but yeah, when I slung books at Barnes & Noble, I definitely handed off Martin's books in lieu of Jordan's, and vice versa. And then caught myself, and the customer and I would have a laugh. Anyway, Brian Sanderson (I think?) has taken up the Wheel of Time helm.

Buahaha if GRRM was coming for me I could prrrrrrrobably outrun him. Or at least induce his cardiac arrest. /HORRIBLE PERSON (but one horrible person deserves another? idk, I am just .. stfu dhb grrm) (fuck yeah, alphabet soup!)

Jane Austen can't sue about the zombies! And the Lincoln family heirs can't go after Seth Grahame-Smith, either! It's a work of fiction.

And fanfic gets even MORE meta -- it's FICTIONAL FICTION.

Like, I understand being protective of your writing and your characters. I do. But you also loose them into the world -- effectively, the wild -- once you put them out there. And then they really are like these little fictional public figures who are there to be ogled and abused by the masses.

Or, okay, maybe I'm just getting my Intro to Media Law on a little too hard but COME ON. Don't be GRRM, authors. Don't be DHBs.

JK Rowling just became even cooler. Of course, she is so stinking rich she doesn't need to worry about protecting her copyright. But good luck trying to keep her HP fandom smut free!

Awe, I love Ursula LeGuin. Too bad she's anti-fanfic.

I wonder what JRR Tolkien, Jane Austen and Charles Dickens would have to say on the topic.

Have a nice run! I just got back from mine. Coffee tastes even better after fresh air.

I do appreciate that Rowling doesn't get her knickers as twisted over it as all these other morons seem to, but yeah, even that stuff about keeping the characters PG makes me laugh. Good luck with THAT.

I always feel for Jane Austen because of the damn zombies.

Finally heading out on my run now. I went into the kitchen to get water in prep, and discovered that I had somehow managed NOT to put S's lunch in his lunchbox before I put the lunchbox in his backpack. Instant trip to school, yay! Ergh. So off I go.

I feel like huh. After reading this article, it's clear that a lot of these authors are basing their views on fan-fiction 1)with the assumption that these people are trying to get published and become a threat to their livelihood as a writer 2) without really understanding what it actually IS. ODDLY ENOUGH, Stephanie Meyers seemed to have the closest to factual idea about what fanfic is and what it seeks to do. In a way, I can almost see her view of like, after reading something well written, thinking, "Look at at all the talent and energy you're putting into this. Go be original and get published!" The idea of just writing for fun is not..relevant to her, or something, when such a monetary reward has come from HER efforts. But that is just...sad.

As far as like... wanting to keep your literary worlds to yourself and for your manipulation only, I think that's cheep and crappy and, as K said, EFF THOSE GUYS. First, only what you (the author) say in that literary fictional world you've created will be accepted as fact anyway, no matter what anyone else does to it. (e.g. For as many AUs as we write surrounding S8, we know the events that went down as fact, at least as factual as fiction can be, which is not factual at all. But as much as we hate something, we do maintain what technically happened.)

Also, when you put a story out there into the world, the whole reason you're getting published is because you 1) activate that imaginary world in the heads of your readers and 2) write characters that readers will fall in love with and get thinky about. My point being, the only reason these people make money is that people (their prospective readers) have IMAGINATIONS and they read and think about the characters and the unique world and build in their minds all these imaginary aspects that keep them reading and thinking and involved in the book. So, in a lot of ways, publishing success depends so heavily upon readers having imaginations beyond that of the text. When did you last read a book in which everything you imagined or thought about a character was written clearly on the page?

I think I have never done that. There's always MORE that I imagine. And that's such a natural thing. We prop up books with more support by adding elements that are pleasing to us, even if it's just scenery or character traits that are there but hardly explored, or clothing, or relationships, or extended scenes. Is it wrong of us to imagine a fuller version of Barbara Kingsolver's famously short sex scene in Animal Dreams? Is it wrong, when time lapses in a story like in Catching Fire to imagine more events than those described? I would argue that published success depends on it, and authors have been making money off of our extended curiosity since writing existed. We naturally embellish stories with aspects that will make it better to us AS WE READ. I personally see nothing wrong with sharing these embellishments with others, tapping into your own creative writing style, and getting feedback. It makes books and movies and TV MORE popular. It makes them more money. And, while I'm against publishing anything of the sort that uses someone else's characters, I just think it's such a non-issue when society as a whole can only cite one example of this happening for the millions of fanfic writers that exist who don't want a dime. They just want to share their creative thoughts and be fannish and talk more about your book.

Fanfiction is like a giant advanced book club that couldn't exist without the technological advances in this world. People who love stories can find each other, flail about them, about how amazing the authors and/or writers are, talk about and dissect the characters, and imagine more on their own. Are these writers opposed to book clubs that only enhance their success? JUST SAYING.

I WILL finish the Christmas fics, btw. JUST SO MUCH TO DO.

(e.g. For as many AUs as we write surrounding S8, we know the events that went down as fact, at least as factual as fiction can be, which is not factual at all. But as much as we hate something, we do maintain what technically happened.)

God, the THIS attack I had when reading what you wrote here. I mean, everybody on the planet knows the horrible vexed relationship I have with the trajectory of what 24 did to Renee, but I don't dispute it. I write all the fucking AU in the world (and will continue to do so, mothafuckas, so suck it hard) to make myself feel better, but I in no way believe this interferes with canon.

I guess I grudgingly take your point about StephEnie Meyers. Mostly I think it's my perception that I'm a better writer than she is that makes me want to punch her in the face. THERE I SAID IT. And I know K is a better writer than she is, so just fuck yourself StephEnie.

Oh A. I don't even know what to say about your gorgeously well-articulated paragraph on the way we fill in gaps even in published fiction. Just, all the yes in the world. ALL OF IT. Your analogy of fanfic as a book club is my new favorite thing in the world, and I am not lying.

BB. I kid about the Christmas fic. I kid! Except for the part where I am a greedy horrible whore, and I always want fic. It's all good. It's not as if I'm exactly prolific lately. Heh.

I just really love your response here. For it, you get the epic icon of fannish love. ♥♥♥

This this THIS.

You know, my grandfather was in a Dickens fan club in the 1930s that had dinners and an international executive and everything, and I bet that they wrote fan fic. I would be absolutely stunned if, at their Dickens Society dinners, they didn't read each other their imagined scenes and tributes and whatnot. I wish he was still around to ask him.

Oh. Em. Gee.

Bwahahahahaha. "Have you seen Gale?"

I really like Stross' comment about it. </p>

(Sorry about the paragraph sign again. LJ app not always perfect lol.)

That was so interesting to read. How adamantly against it some writers are. I understand both sides to the argument and I do think TV is the same because it's all about copyright and what not. Here's what I find funny though. If you want to break into screenwriting you have to write a spec script which is a script of an existing show. They WANT you to take the characters and put them in an episode to prove you can write them. Granted I'm not posting my episode all over the Internet and it's not like I made Castle and Beckett (or Elliot and Olivia when I did that script) have sex and porn it up. It's the same as an episode. It's just funny to me because in a lot of ways specs are fanfic. I wanted Castle to throw a fundraiser in honor of Beckett's mom (something he tells her he's gonna do in an earlier season) and I put that in my script. Interesting that it could potentially get me a job but fanfic might be a dealbreaker.

Personally, if it was me I'd be flattered. I'd read some of it. I respect some of it. I think that some people have such incredible talent but don't want to be writers so they would never make up their own characters but should still be writing. I'd be pissed if they tried to publish it but that's it. I'd be proud that I created something that people love so much that they don't want to let it go at the end of the day. There's something magical about that.

I won't lie though. It has scared me that eventually my love of writing fanfiction will fuck me over job wise in the future.

Rambling done. Clearly I have a lot to say on the issue lol.

I really like Stross' comment about it.

Me, too. That was the only one that just straight up made me laugh and didn't cause me to need to hit someone.

You make such an excellent point about the script submissions -- something I hadn't thought of at all. It's just that in the end, the lines are so freakin' blurry that all these authors who try to unblur them just piss off my shit so hard.

I'd be proud that I created something that people love so much that they don't want to let it go at the end of the day. There's something magical about that.

YES, precisely. I mean how great would that make you feel? It would make me feel great, guaranteed. And yes of course I'd be like WHAT, YOU TURNED THAT INTO BDSM SLASH? Ahahahaha. But I'd still be okay with it, again as long as profit is not involved. I love A's book club analogy. Everybody just needs to get over themselves.

Okay yeah I wouldn't want BDSM slash but then again I can't lie. I'd be curious to read it. I am thinking about the pilot I wrote a while back and I'm like OMG I bet people would ship so and so slash wise and that would be kind of funny to read...

You make such an excellent point about the script submissions -- something I hadn't thought of at all. It's just that in the end, the lines are so freakin' blurry that all these authors who try to unblur them just piss off my shit so hard.
Yes. It's so incredibly blurry. I'd actually be more curious to think what showrunners feel about it. Mainly because I've spent the past 13 years writing fic for TV shows and not for books. So I'd love to have this discussion with an actual showrunner or staff writer.

It has scared me that eventually my love of writing fanfiction will fuck me over job wise in the future.

You mean like, if somebody somehow made the connection from your fic to like, a spec script you wrote, is that a thing that could cost you a job? Because of the legality of it, or because like...fanfiction is nerdy? I find all of this SO INTERESTING and also like, you know. Relevant.

*giggles in the corner*

Everybody remember this is an unlocked entry, because I do that when I wish to be meta about fic.

Hm. Let me see if I can word this right (pre coffee.)

Fandom is known to be...obsessive. The Castle fans are a bit obsessive. Now for the most part I am not in fandom. I did it with SVU and I had no real desire to do it again. I have a few friends I made due to the show but I'm not fully involved. However, I feel like if the showrunner or whoever ever found out I wrote fanfiction I would be lumped into that group of crazy fans, aggressive fans, someone who is just there to get inside scoop and be a crazy person.

There is a Twitter that recc's Castle fics and a while back mine was recc'd. A couple times. With very nice thoughts and therefore I thanked the person who did it. She now knows me and my Twitter name is now connected to my fanfic. (It's not the name I post under, but it is connected with me.) I would probably change my name if I ever were to get a job but I do worry about that as well.

The fics I write and the scripts I write have no connection to one another. I write relationship fics and my scripts are as in character as they can be and therefore, yes, Castle and Beckett have a close relationship but no they're not sleeping together. I'm not even worried so much about legality or it being nerdy but more the obsessive thing. Yes, I'm obsessive to some extent. If I wasn't, I wouldn't be so determined to work there (and for the record I want to work there because I absolutely LOVE this relationship and the complex nature of it and the beauty of it and the progression of it and I would love to learn from the people who do that so flawlessly.) But I'm also not someone who would see Stana or Nathan on the street and jump them and scream I LOVE YOU SO MUCH, WILL YOU MARRY ME? I have boundaries but if they knew my secret, would they automatically assume I didn't?

Ah so much rambling. I clearly could talk about this for days.

Funny! I was going to post this exact topic. You stole my idea! Waaaaah!

IDK. On the one hand, half of the great literary canon is essentially Biblical fanfic. And there are many ways that emulation is honoured - e.g., the Hemingway contests, and all the Jane Austen rip-offs. In some ways, the movie Clueless is more offensive than fan fic, because it's exactly the same plot told in a different time. Yet I love that shit.

OTOH, I can understand that writers who are still around might feel that fic (especially fic that is better written) might affect their sales. For TV and movies, I think fic expands the brand and builds the audience. If I were running PR for a show that wasn't doing very well, I would totally create a Flog and plant fic. Which kind of undermines the sales argument, because, let's face it, people are not generally ficcing struggling authors.

Creatively, I think all of my favourite fic writers could write original fic and I would pay for it. But I also understand that not everyone wants to write original fic. Fan fic has a different motivation.

Ethically, fan fic is akin to writing a research paper. The original source is acknowledged, but reworked to create something new. As long as no-one is making money off it or claiming it as their own, no harm no foul. (In fact, people do actually make money off research papers, so fic is more innocuous that way.)

Emotionally, I can totally understand writers not wanting other people playing with their characters. I've only written a few minor OCs, but I think it would drive me crazy if I saw them showing up in other people's fics. Because they came to me. They live in my head. Leave them alone! Or maybe I'd be flattered. Or maybe I'd be jealous if someone wrote them better than I did. I really have no idea.

Does Mr. T count? Teri Bauer. Tristan from the James Harriet series.

Onoz, I did not mean to steal your idea! I just read this article and went all red ragey.

Ethically, fan fic is akin to writing a research paper.

Holy hell, you guys are coming up with the best analogies in the world today. I just have to pat myself on the back for having the smartest friends EVER. You are 100% right. That's exactly what it is. All sources are credited, so just GEEZ.

Little Teri! I can use her! You are just a complete genius, srsly.

eta: Really it would bother you if people borrowed one of your OCs? Huh. I find that fascinating!

Edited at 2012-04-20 03:48 pm (UTC)

I'm not actually sure WHY I feel this way, but book fanfic and TV fanfic DO feel different to me. It's like, I feel much more anxious about writing book fanfic, and I usually have no desire to do so. While I feel like TV is fair game. Maybe because TV characters are almost always a team effort, instead of belonging to one person? And they creative talent behind the stories is often rotating. So you don't even have the same people responsible for them year after year. They feel less... owned, somehow.

(While I have a hard time engaging in any sort of fanfic for books myself, I have ZERO problem with anyone else doing it. I think it's fine.)

And often TV shows will openly court fanfic, because they've realized it creates buzz and brings in viewers, and they want all they can get. They just create rules where none of their creative team is allowed to read any of it, for legal reasons.

So, I can kind of get WHY the book authors are so much more anal about it, but I also feel like they do not actually understand fanfic AT ALL.

I often think there is fear behind it of someone one-upping them in a way. Like... I have occasionally written fanfic that I have posted in parts, and after, say, the first or second chapter, you can kind of tell where I'm going. And I've had fans review it and be all: "Oooh, that's an interesting idea! I see what you're doing!" And then, a week later, suddenly they post a story that is EXACTLY what I was doing, but in their own style and basically completing the plot that I was creating. And I want to stab them, violently. They would credit me in their notes and thank me for inspiring them, but GODDAMN, YOU JUST BASICALLY STOLE MY ENTIRE STORY, WTF??

The book stuff feels different to me too, and as seems par for the course today, I cannot do a good job of articulating why. One thing is that I have never once been grabbed by a crazy desire to fic anything out of a book. Ever. Not once. And clearly this happens to me on TV at least once every five years or so, so that's a thing. I'm with you though that I don't find anything wrong it with ficcing book stuff as long as you give credit. And of course you're also right about the more collaborative nature of TV, which might be why a lot of the people involved there actually encourage the fanfic.

But WOW, seriously that is a thing that has happened to you on more than one occasion? Someone appropriating your idea and then just doing it? I mean I got blatantly plagiarized once but beyond that, certainly nothing even close. This was in SVU I assume? Yeesh. That is beyond low. That's one thing I learned to love very quickly about the 24 fandom on LJ. I mean when an event happened on the show and we all sort of had the same idea about a possible fic, we conversed about it and totally agreed on what was going on before anybody just appropriated it. Idk. I think that sucks.

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